Crossfit Norwest, Raw strength and conditioning and Barefoot Evolution Discussion Forum

[Tom]

Last night, some of the guys and I were having a discussion in the box regarding using a belt and its advantages/disadvantages. Some people were under the impression that using a belt is a bad thing, I assume because they were under the belief that it "turns your abs off" or something similar. I too held this view until a little while ago when I read a few articles regarding equipment in powerlifting.
From memory we never finished the discussion however the reality is that, being not very bright, I probably wouldn't have given a good enough/detailed enough answer anyhow. So, rather conveniently, I've found an article discussing the use of belts. Some of you may get a kick out of the site itself as well.

http://70sbig.com/?p=884

[adrian]

Hey - this is a Crossfit forum! We dont wear belts! GPP mate - you're not going to have your belt and gloves handy when your car flips over and you need to lift it off your wife/loved ones now are you?

But really - If its going to help you lift more without a belt then thats cool right?

Slightly off topic and to hijack this thread - Do you know what the story is with Rippetoe and Crossfit? Weren't you saying that he is no longer associated with Crossfit? That now means they've lost two big names...

[Shaneyboy74]

Sorry to hijack as well Tom,

Adrian....not sure if you heard just recently that Crossfit HQ have lost a number of great coaches in the past due to their autocratic Nazi way of running their business...Dan John, Coach Sommer, Rippetoe, Mark Twight and just recently Robb Wolf and Greg Everett....Damn shame cause these guys were only trying to improve the crossfit methodology and programming of main site WODs.

Crossfit as a strength and conditioning program still rocks I reckon....

[Lawrence.McDonell]

I don't necessarily think belts are a bad thing and quite clearly they do offer some advantage in terms of being able to brace your abs against them and increase intra thoracic pressure. The thing i am unsure of the claim that you lift more weight with them you will lift more weight without them. This seems logical as of course more weight on the bar in a squat for example means that you loading the muscles being used with more weight and therefore making them progressively stronger. The other part of me says though that if you cannot create enough thoracic pressure without the belt then isn't that the weakness? I mean if you use the belt and increase your lift by 20kg and then attempt the same lift without the belt and your abdominals have nothing to brace against are you still able to lift it...? Are your breath holding muscles strong enough to withstand the strain that you legs, lumbar spine and musculature have become accustomed to? Does it lead to an imbalance between what your muscles can lift and what you pressure you can maintain by holding breath? Does it increase the risk of an injury?
I guess i am posing these in the form of questions because i don't know the answer. Something tells me though a similar argument can be applied to other less accepted aids. Straps for the wrists on a dead lift...? You can lift more with them so you can lift more without them...? applying the same logic seems hard to argue with but still raises the same questions for me...What about squat suits... Sure they assist the stretch reflex out of the bottom and surely aren't they providing compression for muscles to create more pressure against... but in terms of my training is that what i want? I guess when it comes down to it for someone like me who is not seeking to be a strength specialist and who still can't squat 2xbodyweight (yet) the belt doesn't seem so appealing to me. If i already had a 2xbodyweight squat and 3x deadlift and was finding it hard to progress i can absolutely understand the use of a belt as a TOOL to improve your lift. I think though, that like many things, people are too quick to look to aids when they are still at novice or intermediate levels with all things. People look to creatine when they have 25kg to lose.... they look to caffeine and supplements to improve perfomance before they can run around the block. In the world of power lifting etc i can understand the belt. In the world of GPP i think it is perhaps less necessary until approaching advanced level lifts and beyond.

[Rob]

Most sports have a fair bit of politics in their rank structure or heirachy. CrossFit started as an exercise prescription program however over the last few years CrossFit has assumed a sporting idenity. With his idenity change or perception comes politics.

Like Shane said "CrossFit HQ" has lost a few influential coaches as part of their organisation at higher levels. It must be noted however that these individuals have only seperated from CrossFit HQ politically. These well respected coachs still either coach or own very well respected CrossFit boxes. They are still CrossFitters and coaches but have become less than impressed with the other influential personalites in the organisation.

I would like those reading this thread to know that each CrossFit box is free to program exercises however they like. Crossfit has no business model for it's affiliates which is a contentious topic issue in the states at present.

Have trust and you'll get results.

[Tom]

I don't necessarily think belts are a bad thing and quite clearly they do offer some advantage in terms of being able to brace your abs against them and increase intra thoracic pressure. The thing i am unsure of the claim that you lift more weight with them you will lift more weight without them. This seems logical as of course more weight on the bar in a squat for example means that you loading the muscles being used with more weight and therefore making them progressively stronger. The other part of me says though that if you cannot create enough thoracic pressure without the belt then isn't that the weakness? I mean if you use the belt and increase your lift by 20kg and then attempt the same lift without the belt and your abdominals have nothing to brace against are you still able to lift it...? Are your breath holding muscles strong enough to withstand the strain that you legs, lumbar spine and musculature have become accustomed to? Does it lead to an imbalance between what your muscles can lift and what you pressure you can maintain by holding breath? Does it increase the risk of an injury?
I guess i am posing these in the form of questions because i don't know the answer. Something tells me though a similar argument can be applied to other less accepted aids. Straps for the wrists on a dead lift...? You can lift more with them so you can lift more without them...? applying the same logic seems hard to argue with but still raises the same questions for me...What about squat suits... Sure they assist the stretch reflex out of the bottom and surely aren't they providing compression for muscles to create more pressure against... but in terms of my training is that what i want? I guess when it comes down to it for someone like me who is not seeking to be a strength specialist and who still can't squat 2xbodyweight (yet) the belt doesn't seem so appealing to me. If i already had a 2xbodyweight squat and 3x deadlift and was finding it hard to progress i can absolutely understand the use of a belt as a TOOL to improve your lift. I think though, that like many things, people are too quick to look to aids when they are still at novice or intermediate levels with all things. People look to creatine when they have 25kg to lose.... they look to caffeine and supplements to improve perfomance before they can run around the block. In the world of power lifting etc i can understand the belt. In the world of GPP i think it is perhaps less necessary until approaching advanced level lifts and beyond.

I think the analogy of weightlifting belts being like straps is incorrect. Straps completely remove the hand from the movement, yes they enable more weight to be lifted but this is because the weak link has been removed. With a weightlifting belt, the weak link is taught to work harder. Think of it the same as a barbell. You can do bodyweight squats, or you can do squats with a bar. The bar makes your muscles contract harder as their is an external force to push against. This is the same as a belt, which makes your abs contract hard against them.

This is the same with powerlifting suits e.g. bench shirts/squat suits. These work by having material that is deliberately tighter on one side, meaning that as it is stretched further it provides a greater "push" to retain it's normal shape (think of an elastic band, the further you pull, the harder it gets). Again, they are aiding you not by making your muscles contract harder but by doing some of the work for you. I have seen guys wearing bench shirts so tight/strong that they couldn't touch the bar to their chest unless it weighed >180kg.

I think that wearing a belt while you do all your GPP workouts is pretty silly, however when training to get stronger I believe it is a good tool to have. I would also like to make the point (and in doing so echo Rippetoe), that I believe strength is perhaps the most important aspect of GPP.
It would be far easier to turn an olympic weightlifter in to a fantastic all rounder, then it is to transform a marathon runner.

The belt is a barbell for your abs.

[Rob]

I think comparing a barbell squat to a weight belt is ridiculous. A weight belt will falsely give you the impression you are stronger than you are. Like Lawrence said if you are a tiny bloke at fitness first deadlifting or squatting in your track pants and muscle tee you will be lifting more than your body can physiologically handle in a natural environment. Like Lawrence said what if Stavros (fitness first guy) is coming home from DCM's after a massive night on the pills after his Friday evening bicep pump session and he runs up the gutter in the car. Him and his mate Spiro have to deadlift the front end of the car off the gutter. Stavros and Spiro are suddenly fucked because they don't have their weight belt

it has long been known in that in physiological fields that external forces on a muscle will actually stimulate it. This is facilitation. Usually this technique is used to rehabilitate a weak muscle. Not weak in terms of strength but weak to imbalances of other muscles which are either hypertonic or hypotonic. Hypotonic muscles usually need facilitation to 'wake' them up however if the hypertonic muscle is not relaxed the hypotonic will again be weakened after facilitation has ceased. Thus only having a temporay effect on the body. Chiropractic techniques focus on this facilitation and inhibition theory

if we decide to wear weight belts because of the 'facilitation' argument does that mean I start to walk around with electrical Leeds attached to me as the Russians used to train using electrophysical therapies to enhance muscular contraction. Again only a temporay form of facilitation. Does this mean Spiro and Stavros are going to have to hook up their interferential or tens electrical machines with their weight belt to lift this damn car off the curb?

[Dan]

First of all I cannot allow caffeine to be mentioned with any sort of negative tone.
It must cease immediately.

Im not sure using a belt is a good idea, and im hardly an expert, on anything, as it seems to me we are training the body to perform in a manner in an environment that cannot be replicated in real life (functional fitness).

If your removing the weak link, or training your body in a manner that your compensating for parts of your body that cannot handle naturally what your trying to do to it, your doing it a disservice. Its not by definition, functional.

My uneducated opinion.

[adrian]

Today I got 1RM 110kg squat - so next week I use a belt and I can start lifting 110kg for reps, then I go back without a belt and my 1 rep max has gone up 10kg. I dont know if this is what would happen (and I'm not about to use a belt anyway) but I think thats the main point. Get stronger, faster.

One thing I dont understand is the physiology of the abdominals 'contracting' against the belt. As I thought the muscles either contracted up and down or from side to side creating the stability. But thats something I need to read more about. Seems to me its actually just stopping the abs from relaxing and therefore supporting the spine. Not sure.

That picture of the guys 'abs' coming out over the belt on the cover of Powerlifting 1980 - just looks like fat!

[Tom]

Below is a reply from a thread regarding belt use.

"The belt allows one to squat more weight NOT because it provides rebound...and not because the belt itself increases the necessary intra-abdominal pressure. The belt gives the abs something to push against so that the ABS THEMSELVES can provide more pressure. The belt just allows the abs to generate more tension by providing external resistance...just like a freaking weighted barbell on your back allows you to generate more tension than just flexing your lower body muscles really hard without the barbell as you stand up."

"No, you will not be able to use as much weight in the low bar/bent over squat without the belt. But your beltless squat WILL improve even if you train with the belt all the time. It's easy to forget to pressurize the midsection properly if you're used to the tactile cue that the belt provides and are suddenly without it...but a couple of reps should be sufficient to remind you that you have to push OUT your abs and stay tight through the midsection."

"You still won't be able to squat as much without the belt because it's just not possible to build up as much tension without something pushing back. Just remember that even with the belt, it is YOUR abs providing the tension, not the belt. Just like it is YOUR muscles providing the tension, not the bar against which they're pushing."

Firstly, I'm not sure I can believe Stavros and Spiros exist, they both train at Fitness First and squat and deadlift? Unlikely , nonetheless.

If someone does decide to use a belt, their abs are now working harder, harder than if the belt was not on at all. Yes, you will not be able to deadlift as much without a belt on, however due to the fact that your abs have been working harder for the past 3 months by using a belt then they should now be stronger, right?