Crossfit Norwest, Raw strength and conditioning and Barefoot Evolution Discussion Forum

[Dan]

I have been considering this for a few weeks. I think my diet is very holistic, I dont think I miss out on anything. I feel great, can train hard most days, and kilo for kilo, I reckon I can out do most people in the gym on most things.

However, Raw training is no ordinary training, and its not like we sit around all day in between workouts at leisure.....

So I have been researching with the aid of my 2 favourite websites, Robbwolf.com and marksdailyapple.com and both have sort of similar takes on the subject. Robb Wolf suggests the Rippetoe approach of a gallon of milk a day for those wanting to gain mass and strength, but not as a long term thing, and be prepared to put on the fatness....
We saw poor Tom do this to himself last yr, though his skwat did improve a fair bit. I have been researching milk this past week or two as well, but cannot find grass fed, we cannot buy raw milk in Australia, and the best I found is unhomogenised A2 but its 7 bucks for 2 litres, and again I dont want to get fat....
I considered briefly a jersey cow in parramatta....

I will acknowledge whey protein powder is not paleo. Its milk derived. Milk is bad for reasons such as irritation, inflammation and insulin spikes.

However, post workout, there is pretty much a 30 minute window where the body is craving such that we can get away with foods we normally could not eat with such impunity. Considering a high quality whey protein isolate powder can be absorbed and delivered within 30 minutes, thats ideal.

So I have taken the plunge and just bought this powder, starting with only 1kg to see how I go.

http://professionalwhey.com.au/catalog/ ... ucts_id=61


They claim it to be from grassfed cows.
I asked about their supplier, the business owner was very forthcoming in giving me this information, Fonterra, and googling them, they seem quite proud of their dairy company being supplied from grassfed stock in New Zealand.

I will give it a try and see how it goes and post back here.
I chose Whey protein Isolate (WPI) over whey protein concentrate (WPC) as it has less than 1% lactose (insulin and other problems) and is the fastest absorbing. I intend to only drink this straight after workouts. For sustained protein, nothing beats real whole food (including my awesome jerky).

My goal is to maintain my leanness, we still have the 100km run coming up, but repair better, train harder, and of course get stronger.

If I could do this maintaining my bodyweight, ideal, if I put on lean mass, great, if I start getting chubby, I will ditch it.

[Dan]

And looking through his site, he takes his nutrition seriously.

http://professionalwhey.com.au/catalog/ ... ucts_id=67

Anybody who sells that product with quotes on his page such as

Coconut Oil is a unique natural fat which helps the body burn fat, have more energy and heal. Yes, you heard right – coconut oil in a whey protein shake, chicken curry or straight off the spoon, will help you get lean and feel satisfied.

and

It has a “thermogenic effect”, raising the body’s temperature, which in turn boosts energy levels and the metabolic rate. The metabolic rate not only increases, but coconut oil, as a medium chain fatty acid, will also help the body burn long chain fatty acids.

and

“Politically correct dietary gurus tell us that polyunsaturated oils are good for us and that saturated fats cause cancer and heart disease. Such misinformation about the relative virtues of saturated fats versus polyunsaturated oils has caused profound changes in western eating habits. At the turn of the century, most of the fatty acids in the diet were either saturated or monounsaturated, primarily from butter, lard, tallow, coconut oil and small amounts of olive oil. Today most of the fats in the diet are polyunsaturated, primarily from vegetable oils...Excess consumption of polyunsaturated oils has been shown to contribute to a large number of diseased conditions”

knows his shit in my opinion.

[Tom]

*Slightly off topic*

Rip generally only recommends GOMAD for skinny, underweight guys with "appetite problems" looking to get stronger. He doesn't advocate that approach for anyone and everyone. And I put on about 8kg and my squat went up 20kg

*Back on topic*

You're going to have 1 scoop of protein powder after working out, right? To look at it simply from a caloric standpoint:

1 scoop = 25g of Protein (maybe less) which in turn = 100 calories
6 days a week = 600 calories per week
Approximately 7000 calories in 1kg of Bodyfat.

I don't think this small addition to your diet will cause you to lose the abs.

And damn do I admire your dedication to this Paleo thing.

[Dan]

Good cals bad cals man, nothing to do with how much. I have said it about a dozen times here, if I counted calories, it would be about a billion a day....

GOMAD is recommended by a lot of people based on Rip saying something along the lines of it growing people like nothing else, nothing mentioned about skinny people only...
http://ripquoteoftheday.blogspot.com/20 ... -july.html
http://ripquoteoftheday.blogspot.com/20 ... -2009.html
http://ripquoteoftheday.blogspot.com/20 ... -2009.html

I like to think about things re diet.

[Ben M]

Dan,

Interesting thread / post!!
Not only post WOD, perhaps some people need the supplement to sustain their daily intakes..??

I worked out I need over 200 grams per day, at least. I think we discussed this at one stage as well..?
If i was to eat that much protein, it'd be over 1.2 kilos of meat / fish etc and I wouldn't be able to eat all the other stuff needed....

Since starting the supplements I'm noticing some changes for the better. Just a straight WPI of 60 grams over the course of the day (mid morning snack, afternoon snack and evening) is making an impact.

Perhaps there are those circumstances where these things are just needed?

/Grey areas man...


Ben

[Dan]

I can agree with you that 1.2kg's of meat is tough, but I do it most days, consisting of a 200gm meat pattie for brekky, 400g steak or chicken breast for lunch, same for dinner, and at least a can of tuna or 3 and some jerky.

Doable, but tough.

WPI is probably your best bet for practicality sake, has the least amount of the bad stuff in milk that gives the problems, and is least likely to give an insulin spike.

Do you find yourself getting hungry afterwards? The WPI is supposed to clear your stomach/be absorbed fast, and it is suggested to not have it by itself to make it last longer, (so you feel fuller for longer), with a heap of veges and fat.

Kez is definately right, grey areas man.

I find I can manage with a 100% approach, but if all you can manage is 80%, thats plenty fine as well. As long as we are making healthy changes!

[Ben M]

I couldn't stomach that much food, just can't eat that much...
IMO, key with these powders is dailling out the BS that comes with them. Too many companies promote the drink this and look like this approach which is where guys naturally get sucked in, reason i say this is:

1) For those who still drink milk, 200mls of Pura light start provides nearly 20 grams of protein (same protein in a powder as it's whey derived)...... your average chocolate milk drink has a healthy hit... (Don's flame suit)...

2) Personally downing 60 grams of WPI post workout is a waste as you won't process and absorb all that protein, in fact less than 30 grams will be picked up and used by your body.
3) Body can't store protein, too much is merely passed through the kidneys, over 300 grams per day is very hard on kidneys too, there are health risks.
A big hit post workout or once a day proves nothing other than an image (do I miss the finance first shakes in the locker room, no - YUK!)
4) If you're not having regular balanced meals containing protein intakes then the one shake is pointless, muscles require constant trickle feed as part of recovery / life. WPI (IMO) is handy as it's absorbed to help maximise recovery gains post WOD. After 30 minutes there's nothing WPI will do that any WPC won't... Which puts powders back on the same playing field as food...

On WPI I felt empty and hungry, I found food and WPI didn't agree. I usually down the musashi bulk prior to a WOD, about 2-3 hours before hand. It contains good fats (saturated), acids, minerals vitamins etc, short, medium and long term carbs which help energy levels. I use it as a supplement throughout the day in 20 grams serves (one heaped spoon full). Use water not milk, unless you are chasing a keg like mine...

Switching back to the musashi bulk as a general assistance throughout the day made the difference for me, I usually have a small shake 2 hours before heading to bed as well. Given our bodies can't store this shit, yet require it constantly i figure smaller amounts spread out is a better approach to some highly processed hit as a once off.

I don't bother with a protein shake post wod as i'm generally feeling seedy and ill, unable to stomach dairy. I do believe I should try for smaller amounts and back it up with food. The rides home are a struggle...

Honestly, at the end of the day, it's a supplement to help me reach dietary requirements.
Dan - thank you for all the info and efforts on diet, I'm finding it a valuable asset as i work on getting it sorted...

[Tom]

Good cals bad cals man, nothing to do with how much. I have said it about a dozen times here, if I counted calories, it would be about a billion a day....

I like to think about things re diet.

I reckon if you counted calories you'd be somewhere in the 3-3.5k mark. I'd be pretty surprised if you went above that simply eating whole foods. Depending on metabolism / activity levels that's really not that much at all .

Also @ Ben:
I'm not sure there's ever been any concrete studies to say that certain levels of protein consumption are hard on the kidneys, sounds like "conventional wisdom" to me. Same with the "body only absorbs x amount of protein at a time". This statement seems to be too lose to have any scientific grounding, there's too many variables. Individual metabolism, type of protein, contents of stomach, recent activity, does it constitute eating 60g in 10 minutes, what about 30 minutes?

[Dan]

I agree with Tom!
There I said it!

Putting limits on how much protein one can consume in a given timeframe is to me conventional wisdom aka nonsense. There are so many factors involved, think about it, just the difference in our own bodys, the current state they are in, the level of nutrients in the system, the metabolic rate etc.
Then there are factors such as type of protein, milk has more than 1 - which makes saying whey is the same protein as in milk potentially misleading. It also contains casein, which is very bad juju.

Barry Sears of the zone creation says we cannot handle more than 45 grams of protein at once, I think thats ridiculous, there are so many factors involved, to put a number on such a thing, makes no logical sense.

Part of the whole approach of 1 gram per pound of body weight per day is to consume real food to feel full. Even stuffed. You have to do this, and cannot cheat with supplements. If you need help with supplements to get you across that line, because you cant physically eat enough, then I think thats ok, as long as its coming from good sources.

Saying 300 grams is bad on the kidneys is again conventional wisdom. Its bad if thats all you eat all day. Its not if you balance the acidic load on your body with copious amounts of fruit and veg to create a net base load.

Thats the real issue with high protein diets, people dont balance it, hence why you see a tonne of veges and salad with my meals. I am conscious of what I eat to keep this in mind.

I am not to sure why you suggest a big hit postworkout is useless, there is much information out there saying otherwise.

Post workout nutrition is your most important consideration in your day.

Suggesting chocolate milk has anything good about it, at all, means we need to have a chat about increasing the burpees you do. We dont flame here on this forum, its best to sort out these disagreements in the gym.....

And Tom, re the calories, I punched an average days food intake, where I train and am starving, through fitday.com and came close to 4500 calories here.
I reckon I do close to 4000. Between the meat, coconut, fruit, veg and nuts, its easy to do it clean.
topic417-20.html#p4369

There was a guy who posted 4000 clean calories in an evening/overnight on Robb Wolfs site, it wasnt even his full day, just an evenings food (he is attempting to bulk up). Its doable. And your right, activity levels dicate this.

Also, brain function chews calories, hence why I eat so much

That should be a tshirt.

[adrian]

I've just ordered some along with the coconut oil. I like that you can either buy 700ml or 23 LITRES!! wow

I feel like I'm getting drilled by some of these wod's - usually when I do an endurance wod straight after (stupid) but even if I don't I felt like I was suffering from some fatigue that I haven't been able to shake over the last few weeks. Bought BCAA powder which has glutamine in it and have started dosing up on them.